Start a Google search for "women's fascination with..." and the first three suggestions you'll get on Autofill are "horses," "shoes" and "serial killers."
Is it an attraction/repulsion thing? Maybe. But, yes, serial killers are the ultimate bad boy, and a thing for bad boys is something of a womanly cliché.
But the trope holds no water when you visit the female writers and producers of Criminal Minds (and Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders, its spin-off that premieres March 16), who are in their 11th season of creating unsubs (unknown subjects, usually suspected of serial killing, rampage killing, arson and the like).
They've each come to the table via a unique path, and among them there's a collective background in comedy, drama – familial, soapy and procedural, not to mention journalism, playwriting, even medicine.
There are no pin-ups of the FBI's most wanted in their writers' room, but instead huge whiteboards of the upcoming story beats, as well as a board dedicated to a glossary of criminology terms that you're informed has been printed there "forever" even though the writing staff has them down.
And the women you meet are a convivial group who each take different approaches to writing the episodes but always with the hope of getting to the "Real Simple Scary," the term Criminal Minds showrunner Erica Messer uses for the everyday, it-could-totally-happen terrors that are the show's trademark.
They also bristle, as they should, at those who'd cock their heads and ask, essentially, "What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?" (The same kind of bristling deserved when a man implies or says that women can't write comedy.)
They're pros. That's what they're doing in a place like this.
After more than 200 episodes, the writing staff has shown no shortage of new ideas, even if they have to be more and more inventive. If you need a new fear, they can help you find one. (Uber driver with a basement guillotine? Dating coach who's really teaching men how to serial kill? Hotel manager with all the keys and a grudge against women?)
But they don't let it get to them – too much. Once the nightmares wear off, they do their jobs. And as Karen Maser, Criminal Minds co-executive producer said, "No one leaves this show."
Even when they really simply scare themselves, the female writers of Criminal Minds are writing professionals who happen to have to make the descent to the darkest depths of human nature on the regular, while also finding a way out thanks to the shining lights that are the BAU (the Behavioral Analysis Unit of the FBI - the main characters of the shows).
How they do that varies – whether it's by tapping into their fears or working out the puzzle of a person to maybe feeling a little murderous toward obnoxious bachelorette parties (more on that later).
We spoke to them about their paths to the long-running procedural, how they craft an unsub and how they relieve the stresses of the job.
(In attendance: Erica Messer, executive producer and show runner for both Criminal Minds and Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders (and creator of Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders); Karen Maser, co-executive producer of Criminal Minds, Kim Harrison, producer of Criminal Minds; Daniele Nathanson, supervising producer of Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders; Sheila Lee Watson, co-executive producer of Criminal Minds; Erica Meredith and Ticona Joy, staff writers, Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders.)
First off, can we talk about how each of you got here, if it was a path that began because you knew you wanted to write procedurals or if you started off doing other thing, essentially, what was your journey to Criminal Minds?
Erica Messer: I always joke that I was raised at Party of Five. I worked for the creators of that show and that was my cup of tea.
From Party of Five, my first writing job was on Alias at the beginning when Sidney Bristow was still a normal girl trying to balance spy life. Once [that show] became fully comic book, my voice wasn't needed anymore.
From there I went to The O.C. so I was back in that world of Party of Five-type of storytelling. From there, I went to Charmed, which wasn't a great fit because I didn't know that show at all and it was in its seventh or eighth year.
The thing I did know was how to write siblings, because I have them, but I didn't know how to write demons. And then I met Ed Bernero (former Criminal Minds executive producer) and he was telling me about this show Criminal Minds.
I had a writing partner at the time and we'd only written one procedural [but that gave us] an in with Ed. He'd been running Third Watch for years and he's a retired Chicago cop.
So, he said, listen, I do procedurals but I like them to be character-driven stuff and you have a lot of that. So the first season of this show, we all had nightmares because we're learning about the darkest people in all of history, let alone just American serial killers. We didn't just study them, we studied all around the world and what was going on and how horrific it all was.
That old adage of "you write what you know" kind of went out the window because I don't know serial killing but now I've been writing it for 11 years. It's just weird. Then Beyond Borders came along. What I try to do is just write my fears and think that maybe my fears are someone else's fears as well.
Is that what propels a lot of these stories, your own fears, or is there any fascination with serial killers?
Daniele Nathanson: I'm not fascinated by serial killers and it's funny, I'm very easily scared. So the idea that I'm on a show like this and Beyond Borders is strange. I love psychology, though, and character-driven shows so to me what is so amazing about Criminal Minds is that it's a procedural but it has a real character-driven bent because you have to understand the psychology of the killer.
So what I do is I dive into the psychology of the killer because it's a sort of control and keeps me from getting frightened. I look at it from the other side, from the killer's point of view because it makes me less afraid of being the victim.
Yes, with the killers you come up with so much story for each one – their motives and backstory. I actually was wondering if that's a talent women are better at tapping into, that empathy or ability to find a person's reasons.
Nathanson: I try to humanize the killers and try not to write my fears but my darker impulses are what I think I go with.
Karen Maser: What you're saying is the why helps you get into your story, the "why is this person doing this."
Nathanson: Yes, that's interesting to me and not frightening to me. What they do is frightening to me but their motivation is interesting.
With Beyond Borders you are a supervising producer, so can you outline your trajectory to that point.
Nathanson: I started as a playwright. I lived in Los Angeles, then New York but moved back to Los Angeles and got a writers' assistant job on CSI:NY. I did not expect to write procedurals, I have no cops in my family; I have a lot of lawyers. I took the job.
I appreciate the puzzle of writing a mystery – I like that part. After CSI: NY, I went to Nurse Jackie, a dark comedy. That's my tone. And then I was on a show called Unforgettable, another police procedural, and actually why I ended up on Criminal Minds is I knew this man named Bruce Zimmerman from CSI: NY. He'd been talking about how awesome Erica Messer was and I said, "You know what, let me find her."
I went to the Mark Gordon Company and said, "let's do this." That's the specific why of how I'm on this show, and it's a really good mix, not just because [Erica Messer] is an awesome showrunner but because of the psychology you're allowed to engage in.
Ticona Joy: I started out in comedy. When I first moved out here from grad school I was an intern on Friends and got a PA job there that ended with season 10. Then I went to Joey and I worked with Kim Harrison on Friends and Joey. Her sister worked on Third Watch and we would go hang out in the production office there (on the WB lot) in between having to do work.
Once Joey ended we were both unemployed at the same time. I was working retail and I wanted to kill myself. And Kim [said], "Ed [Bernero] needs an assistant [on Criminal Minds]." A month later, they got picked up for Season 2 and a month later they were hiring a writer's PA.
Ed hired me, and I started. From Season 2 through 10 I was here. From writer's PA to my last job here as researcher.
Then I had a freelance [script] but I never thought I'd be on a drama or wanted to work on a drama. I like to laugh and want to make people laugh so that it is still kind of weird to me that this is where I am. I was always obsessed with TV but thought, "I think I want to write sitcoms."
Then it just turned out not to go that way. But I like scary stuff and I like to be scared. I don't care if I'm scared if I'm reading something – that excites me.
So maybe all along this is where you belonged.
Joy: When I was a researcher, only certain things would trigger me. In the span of a month, every other day there were stories of women microwaving their babies and that I can't handle. But if someone's cutting heads off or ripping eyes out, I'm like, "Oh, that's crazy.' It doesn't affect me the same way. I like to be scared. I like the killing parts.
Erica Meredith: I started as an office PA on Criminal Minds six years ago so this is my first time back for a while, and it's like, this is so weird. I knew I always wanted to work in drama. I was a huge fan of all the '90s TV dramas and I really like mystery.
I like the process of solving a crime, the way you think through it, the rational approach to something that's seemingly irrational. I think that's interesting and I like how the pieces sort of come together to make sense.
So in that sense, I don't know that I ever saw myself writing a procedural – I was a writer's assistant and Erica Messer's assistant for a number of years – but it just starts to get in your blood, the pacing of it and the structure of it, which I find fascinating and really enjoy. I tend to try to pick things that scare me.
I've done a couple episodes and both of them involved body parts being cut off or taken – I just think body harm is the creepiest thing ever.
Like trophies?
Meredith: Yeah, that's horrible. So yes, I did things about stuff like that. And I've done a bit of traveling -- and with one of my friends we're sort of obsessed with it and wish we could travel the world by ourselves but we're women and you can't necessarily just travel the world by yourself. You have to think about your environment in a different way.
We used to share articles back and forth about women who've done it and I think one of the biggest missing sections in travelogues historically is the women's perspective because they're all written by men and certainly the most famous ones are written by men.
We always thought that was really interesting that you don't have that same freedom. So when I started to write Beyond Borders, I started to take that idea that not everyone has the same freedoms when traveling.
The world's not as open when you're a woman.
Meredith: Exactly. And that goes across disabilities, gender, race, sexual orientation, it goes across all of that. People are not always welcome everywhere. And I think that's an interesting thing to be aware of when you're writing these stories. The world is different for people based on who you are.
And that gives you a whole other layer to explore with Beyond Borders. I've been amazed at how all of these 250+ episodes exist and you keep having new stories to tell, and now you open it up to the world and the scary stuff you can do is endless – terrifying when you think about it but great for stories.
Meredith: What's really fascinating having worked on this show for so long and you see this chart of serial killers and bad guy motivations and obsessions and stuff and by and large we've discovered that's pretty much the same worldwide that everyone does these things for the same reasons but your environment shapes you so much.
I think that's what's so cool about Beyond Borders is that the environment that you're in shapes you so that it's different than if you grew up in Ohio and wanted to kill somebody.
So [there are] an endless amount of stories and an endless amount of things that can be interesting and terrifying. I think that's part of the longevity, not only why people do it but what turns them into these people and Beyond Borders is the natural extension of that.
One thing I'm going to get into later is what I find so interesting is that everyone has a backstory on the show so your good guys have had life events that could have led them down the same paths to where your bad guys came to.
I'm interested in those flipsides, and what motivates people to become who they are and make that flip of the coin. A decision or something ingrained, or sometimes maybe both.
Kim, can you talk about how you came here?
Kim Harrison: As Ticona said, we started out on Friends together and I was always into comedy too. I had a problem starting kindergarten because I was obsessed with soap operas. Seriously, in elementary school I never wanted to go to school because I was obsessed with soaps and stories. Oh, I hated school so much. I needed to know what happened and was always curious when the show went off: "What are the characters doing right now?" Elementary was a struggle for me.
Which soaps?
Harrison: All My Children, One Life to Live and General Hospital. I would tape them but I needed to know what they were doing.
It would drive you nuts. Is that what you think got you into storytelling?
Harrison: Yeah, I would be home with grandma and then it was time to start school and I was like, "What do you mean? For the past couple years this is what I've been doing."
So, I was always interested in television. But I didn't think it was going to be in drama. I started off in comedy on Friends for the last three seasons. I went to Joey and was a personal assistant to Jennifer Coolidge for a time.
Then I got the call from Ed [Bernero]'s daughter who I connected to through Third Watch as an assistant to him on Criminal Minds. I wasn't really familiar with serial killers but I joined the show in the second season and learned and learned and in season 5, I was given the opportunity to do a freelance and then was staff season 6. Like Messer, I write from fears. Man.
Messer: You have a thing about rest stops.
I just watched that one. (A recent Harrison episode, "The Bond," features a murderer who kills at truck stop bathrooms.)
Harrison: Just when you think you're okay... I bought a house and thought, I only need alarms on the front door and the back door and then Jeff Clemente (a former FBI profiler who's now a producer and technical adviser on Criminal Minds) will say something and I have to stop out and call ADT and be like, "Let's get all the windows done." You're never okay.
Even from the person installing the alarm...
Messer: Yeah, trust no one.
Maser: It's funny, because before I was on the show, people would say, "Oh, you always go to the dark side." To me what scares me is the stuff that happens in the daytime, it doesn't have to be the scary monster in the dark.
Like in Halloween, there's Jamie Lee Curtis with her books in the afternoon walking home from school and the creepy music comes on. That's scary, that "everyday, it-could-happen-to-you" stuff. On the sidewalk, in a shopping mall -- it doesn't have to be in a darkened alley at night.
So did that dark side influence your path here?
Maser: I started in comedy also, not here in New York on Cosby – no comment – his second sitcom for CBS. I was a script coordinator there and did a freelance and everybody said you have to go out to California. At the time, nothing was happening in New York, you had to go to California.
I had a choice between getting a job as an assistant on a comedy pilot or going on to ER. I weighed the money and wanted to learn drama. Thank God I picked ER because the comedy pilot was canceled after two episodes. And you could be funny on ER even though you were killing kids in trauma 2 or pregnant women were getting shot, you could do a comic runner, which was great.
It was dark humor but I really was drawn to that and the show itself was a hybrid between procedural and character-driven. So I liked that combination. You could do the case of the week but also get into what was happening with the doctors and nurses and how that resonated with the case of the week.
I worked my way from script coordinator, then researcher to a freelance to getting on staff so I was there for nine seasons, which is crazy when you think about it. It was a great learning opportunity with John Wells and all the writers there.
From there I went soapy, on Army Wives for Lifetime for five seasons, where I met Bruce [Zimmerman] – everyone here knows Bruce. That was a great experience, one, just for the material that we had to write but it was also very character-driven, serialized and we got to go Charleston, which was great.
My experience in Charleston gave me my idea for my first episode on this show ("'Til Death Do Us Part") Charleston [is] the number-two destination for weddings in the U.S. after Vegas because of all the churches.
When you were a writer, you got to go on set [for your script], so two and half weeks in Charleston, which was really nice. But on weekends when you were there, it would be all these drunk brides-to-be on the sidewalks. First season, second season, it's really cute. By the fifth season, you're thinking, "Get the EFF off the sidewalk." So they would have their sashes and tiaras and that was my first episode, killing those brides.
Was that something you wanted to do?
Maser: Yeah, after a while.
[After Army Wives], I came here. Nobody leaves this show. It's such a great place to work. Erica's fantastic. I'd never worked for her before but like Daniele, I heard great things about her through Bruce, Virgil [Williams, a CM producer/writer who she'd met on ER] and everybody else.
But for me, I liked dark, scary stuff. I like horror and getting scared. I love Stephen King and I've read all his books. The first time I read The Shining it had to be daytime and there had to be someone home.
So I do like scary stuff – I like the relief when it's over. For stories here, I like the everyday. Erica always says, "real simple scary." It's like, could this really happen? I'm learning there's a lot of horrible people out there but what I like about the show is that yes there are these horrible people out there but the BAU is the light against the darkness.
And they're so invested in it, it's easy to feel good and confident in them.
Maser: Yes, and I like procedurals and crime. I love police series and things like that. I like when the bad guys get caught. Anything with little kids and old people or vulnerable people, my heart just goes out, that's what this show's about. I like when the good guys win.
So far, it's interesting, none of you have said, "I just had to write a procedural." Or serial killers.
Sharon Lee Watson: Well, I like to write a procedural...
(laughter around room)
Watson: No, I'm kidding. I went to medical school actually. I came from a very different path. I came out to UCLA for residency but I always wanted to be a writer. In college, I had wanted to be a writer and had been writing short stories and had dreams of someday in the future being a novelist and had three chapters of a novel in my desk drawer.
I really knew nothing about Hollywood – I'm from Michigan; Hollywood was very mysterious – but being out here you're immediately exposed to it.
My next door neighbor in Westwood was a tour driver at Universal. I think he wanted to be a screenwriter too. So I saw screenplays and saw scripts and was looking at them and thought, "Wow, this is a lot shorter than a novel. Look at all the white space!" I started reading them, and enjoying reading them and began noticing that the really good ones were just as good as novels.
I just started feeling like, maybe I could finish one of these as opposed to a novel which would have to be 500 pages long. And I think I just started writing and trying and enjoying it.
My lucky break was that I took a class at UCLA Extension about the business of Hollywood. It was taught by an agent and really just explaining Hollywood 101. That there are features and there's TV and really the two don't mix and these are what these producer titles mean when you see credits go by.
She was willing to read material for people in the class so I gave her stuff. It was the first time I'd ever given material to anybody. I gave her a couple short stories and a spec. It was honestly the shortest spec I could find that I could write – I think it was a Frasier spec – and as luck would have it, she became my agent and started sending me out on stuff but really got me in the WB drama program for that following year.
Messer: Were you still in medical school? Simultaneously?
Watson: I was in residency.
Can you practice medicine?
Watson: I have a license. Yes, I can prescribe.
(Exclamations around table of "You can prescribe?")
Watson: Most importantly, yes. But, I was at the point in third-year residency where I could choose my clinics and would purposely arrange it so I could go to the drama thing which met maybe once a week for a few hours. It was doable. From that my first writing job was for The Fugitive – the remake for CBS.
Then I worked on Crossing Jordan and The Unit and then I went with Shawn Ryan to Lie to Me for a year. I came over here for Season 7 so I've been here for five seasons now.
But your first spec was a Frasier.
Watson: Yes, but I wouldn't say my writing was comedic. Like I said, I had short stories and things that were not. Frasier was just, "my God, this is only 30 pages long and double-spaced!" But I wouldn't say comedy was my first love; it was more using it to study the structure of TV shows. So after that, I wrote drama specs and pilots.
And your medical degree didn't lead you to procedurals or gory stuff?
Watson: No, if anything I'm a big chicken. I don't like being scared. But I appreciate really good horror things, like The Shining or Silence of the Lambs. Those are just fundamentally fantastic stories whether it's horror or not. I'm very appreciative of that. But I'm not the person who runs out to see the latest horror thing or anything like that. I don't like being scared.
I think after five years on this show and this being season 11, we always joke there's no low-hanging fruit anymore. So we say it's hard to draw from obvious sources of material.
What's great about this show is it's a lot more varied than a straight-up procedural and I don't think people notice that at first unless they're big fan. We can do very different episodes and I like having that freedom.
Sometimes when I started I loved more the psychology of the killer stories but I also at times like the everyday fear too and I also at times like the straight-up action episode. That might come from being on The Unit.
I think this show lets you mix it up and do slightly different episodes which is great. All of it is in the context of trying to catch a killer but I do think there's different ways to do it and different types of killers plus different ways of telling a story from what a quote-unquote procedural allows you to.
